"Manifesto for Renewal" – deleted by Oldham

A well-respected poster called “tom”, clearly feeling that Koptalk wasn’t what it used to be, decided to try and see if he could help. That’s my take on it anyway – I think his post is clearly aimed at getting Duncan Oldham to try and address some of the points he’s been criticised for. This post / thread last approximately 8 minutes before it was removed.

Luckily, we got a copy of it before it went into the forum’s trash can.

tom
Honorary Member

Reged: 12/10/02
Posts: 3420
Loc: in my mersey paradise

Koptalk – a ten point manifesto  for renewal.

Lets face it, for some time Koptalk has deteriorated.  Immature posts, excessive authoritarianism and a gold-fish bowl “us against  them” mentality are some of the reasons for this. As a long-time poster and  lover of the site, I’ve devised a series of action points that I think will  re-knew KT and in the process return it to its glory days. Effectively this  requires the site grows up, becomes more democratic, transparent and accountable  to its members:

i) Firstly and most importantly “Information wants to be  free” ( Stewart Brand at the first Hackers’ Conference, 1984). Drop the charge  for membership. Charging for information that is almost always available free on  the net elsewhere is iniquitous and brings the site into disrespect amongst  serious Liverpool fans. Aside from this, community sites exist through content  contribution by members. We are effectively being charged for posting our own  content. If fees are to be retained it should be on a voluntary basis only. This  is also fairer as it allows the low-waged or unemployed to  participate.

ii) The gold club used to be a very effective debating  forum. Now it sucks. Some alternatives, ditch fees (or make them voluntary as  above). Gold club membership should be conferred on the basis of quality of a  members posts and their standing in the community – not on the depth of their  pockets. I suggest that membership of the Gold club operates through a  “recommendation” mechanism – via other members.

iii) Allow and encourage  the links and sharing of information between different Liverpool sites. The ban  on content from other sites is daft. I go to matches with people who post on  other sites. Naturally we share gossip. Are we to be banned from discussing  things we read on KT, YNWA, RAWK etc. in real life? Are we to be policed on the  streets as well as on the net!

iv) Remove the block on copy and paste  (see above).

v) Back-off from the heavy handed authoritarianism, the  locking and removing of serious posts and threads. This place is turning it  Stalin’s Russia. Do things in a clearer way, merge threads don’t lock  them.

vi) Explain- when people are banned – why that is the case. Allow  them to defend themselves publicly in the KT forums and let the membership  decide by voting whether they should be shipped out or not. More democracy, less  Stalinism and KGB/Stasi behaviour please.

vii) Please block the soft-porn  avatars. My kids and wife sometimes look at this site, it’s offensive and  degrading. This is 2006 not 1976.

viii) Please remove the adds for  *bet-fair* etc. for the same reason. Income can be generated through “cleaner”  adds or pop-ups -even in the gold club.

ix) Amnesty for banned members,  and outreach to other LFC sites. Maybe even appoint some form of member panel,  to help spread the word that Koptalk has reformed.

x) And finally, lets  be adult here, we are all aware of the controversy surround Dunk, my final  suggestion for the site is that Dunk takes a back seat and isn’t so visible,  operating more as a background administrator. Surely that would be a relief for  him, whoever he is, as he must be suffering at the moment. Less of the made-up  gossip, nom de plumes etc. A bit more honesty all round. Try it Dunk – you might  find it suits you.

What is the option if this can’t be achieved? Ideas? 

——————–
Ahhh. Insider’ing it’s a young man’s game. 

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –                

fagan     
Honorary Member
 
 
Reged: 27/09/02
Posts: 2551
Loc: No fixed abode..

 Re: Koptalk Revolution [Re: tom]
#1557637 – 19/07/06 03:14 PM       
 Reply  Quote 

superb post Tom, fair and balanced I thought. Before I  respond to your various points, can I make a serious appeal to the powers that  be that this thread does not result in people being banned or in the thread  being deleted.

From reading the post it comes across as an intelligently  written, unprovocative mission statement. Which people can choose to agree with  or not agree with. But I think in the interests of transparency and maturity  this post should be allowed to remain.

1) The fee thing is the most  controversial of your points Tom. If koptalk does have large overheads and it is  costing the owners money to keep the site up and running then I think looking  for a contribution is fair enough, after all the ‘song site’ also requests a  contribution from members, although that contribution is optional and the amount  you wish to give is at your discretion. I totally agree that we should not be  charged for receiving information or reading posts from certain people or  posting ourselves. I don’t see the need to pay 30/40 quid a year for  that.

2) agree totally with this, it’s a futile exercise. Although we  aren’t allowed to mention ynwa, we are alloed call it the ‘song site’ and copy  and post threads from there on here. So the ban baffles me I have to say. I  don’t think it will result in people leaving koptalk either.

3) agree  totally about deleting posts which question things. However I fear this post  will now be deleted.

4) I too find some of the soft porn avatars  offensive. As tom says kids come on here to read liverpool fans thoughts and are  greeted by such avatars and I too find it objectionable to say the  least.

5) I have been saying for a long time that the standard of the  post has deteriorated dramatically. Liverpool fans have long been known as the  most knowledgeable in the game and reading some of the posts on here completely  destroys that belief. To combat this I think the mods need to be a lot more  vigilant. I too am an long time poster and lover of this site but the  ingredients that made me love this site have been lost along the way. I think  this is directly due to older posters deserting the site so the amnesty is a  good idea I think.

6) finally, I hope this is taken with goodwill. Tom is  a v well respected poster on this site and he clearly wouldn’t go to the trouble  of writing this if he didn’t love the site. All he wants and I want and everyone  wants is the integrity to be maintained on this site which is/was, I think its  fair to say, the original flagship of the independent online Liverpool forums. I  don’t think its an attack or a offensive post. I think its great, it’s a turning  point in my opinion and that’s why I’d like to throw my weight 100% behind it 

——————–
http://www.concern.net
Joe Fagan
Kept on agein’
But he’ll  never walk alone.

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –                

tom     
Honorary Member
 
 
Reged: 12/10/02
Posts: 3420
Loc: in my mersey paradise

 Re: Koptalk Revolution [Re: fagan]
#1557643 – 19/07/06 03:16 PM       
 Edit  Reply  Quote 

Thanks mate.

Lets hope the stasi don’t delete  it.

——————–
Ahhh. Insider’ing it’s a young man’s game. 

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –                

dww100     
Gold Member
 
Reged: 27/03/03
Posts: 1900
Loc: London

 Re: Koptalk Revolution [Re: tom]
#1557645 – 19/07/06 03:16 PM       
 Reply  Quote 

I think all of your points are very  valid.

However I don’t see that KT has to be free. There are srvices that  it provides such as text message updates and videos that are nice to have and  time/hard disk space cost money. My problem is that the advertising of special  information is dubious and certainly misleading.

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –                

carrsim     
Honorary Member
 
 
Reged: 12/09/02
Posts: 8896
Loc: back of the insider fridge

 Re: Koptalk Revolution [Re: tom]
#1557649 – 19/07/06 03:17 PM       
 Reply  Quote 

top stuff mate. as long as you recommend me for the  gold club  

——————–
“My challenge is to find, teach and inspire the  old Liverpool spirit, the mentality, the philosophy of respect and the original  values of football that our club made famous over generations.”
Rafael  Benitez

“I just wanted to get good contact on the first but the second  one was just a dream goal”
Steven Gerrard

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –                

looprevil72     
Gold Member
 
 
Reged: 16/06/04
Posts: 804
Loc: Page 228, 2B

 Re: Koptalk Revolution  [Re: tom]
#1557653 – 19/07/06 03:18 PM       
 Reply  Quote 

What a post.  Viva  La Revolution   (….hopes he does not go missing)

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –                

That was as much as we got before the post disappeared. Deleted either by a mod, or by Duncan Oldham himself. Duncan clearly will not tolerate open discussion. This wasn’t on his “free” site, this was on his paid-for, subscription-only site. To remove the thread before anyone could really discuss shows a distinct lack of respect for his members. What is he afraid of?

Shortly afterwards, tom decided to post a pretty fair question – where had his post gone?

where has my        post gone?
#1557658 – 19/07/06 03:21 PM
Reply

explanation please?

——————–
Ahhh. Insider’ing it’s a young man’s game.

Post Extras:
robp
Gold Member

Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 1140
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: where has my post gone? [Re:        tom]
#1557662 – 19/07/06 03:22 PM
Reply

sadly this will follow

——————–
Journo: “So mark, with such a talented squad do  you think it will be difficult to get into the team here?”

Speedy: “That  will depend on me…”

Rafa: “…And me huh?!”

Post Extras:
mikek1984
Honorary Member

Reged: 29/09/02
Posts: 16355
Loc: Liverpool L18 and Camden
Re: where has my post gone? [Re:        tom]
#1557663 – 19/07/06 03:22 PM
Reply

how  ironic eh dunk

Post Extras:
Dunk
KopTalk Editor

Reged: 20/08/04
Posts: 8489

Re: where has my post gone? [Re:        tom]
#1557664 – 19/07/06 03:22 PM
Reply

You have been  emailed.

As it says in the sticky message at the top of every forum,  please submit feedback via email.

Appreciated

——————–
DunkKnowsBest.com

Post Extras:

fagan
Honorary Member

Reged: 27/09/02
Posts: 2552
Loc: No fixed abode..
Re: where has my post gone? [Re:        tom]
#1557665 – 19/07/06 03:23 PM
Reply

v disappointing.

but  sadly, not surprising.

was it a mod being over zealous?

With that I’ll leave you to comment on the “manifesto” here, because you can’t do that on the Koptalk site itself.

Duncan Oldham is clearly afraid of what his members will say about him.

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20 Responses to “"Manifesto for Renewal" – deleted by Oldham”

  1. aldostash Says:

    glad you got this one in time, vanished as i knew it would. well reasoned and constructive. no place for that kind of thing over there at the moment.

    tom, as a genuine insider, is unlikely to be kicked off, but is given the chance to email dunk personally about it.

    no discussion of course

  2. Sinon Says:

    *applause*

    Well said Tom, very well written, argued and valid points. Pity the time you spend trying to help Dunk wasn’t worth your effort in the end, as it was deemed inappropriate to the curfew for fellow members to see.

    Can’t you see Dunk, everyone is starting to see? Like a baby fawn, opening its eyes for the first time, blinking at the light and beginning to see the possibilties the outside world holds, without having to rely on daddy.

    We don’t even have to do anything anymore Dunk, you are destroying your own site.

  3. The Platinum Club Says:

    Shame, seemed like a reasonable and constructive post to me. He’s not taking any back handed snipes or the like, he’s just making measured suggestions on an adult level.

    I guess even adult reasoning is not the sort of thing that Dunk wants to see on Koptalk.

  4. rupertinsider Says:

    I often hesitate about mentioning the soft porn avatars and betting because I don’t want to sound prudish. Its comforting to hear long established and well balanced posters say the same thing. I would not let kids read his site for the same reasons. But never midn the kids – I don’t like it myself – I can almost hear Oldham’s heavy breathing.

    That’s part of the problem over there – the cult of the personality. It’s the OWNER’s views that dominate, its his interest in porn and gambling that is front and centre.

    The good people – the genuine LFC supporters there – are not allowed to share their thoughts about anything that impinges on his territory – so they don’t get to create a democratic culture or morality – they have to live under his rule. Well they don’t have to……..

    Now they cannot even email or PM each other.

    Big Brother is watching them, the Thought Police are on alert.

    On the Pig Farm all pigs are equal but some are more equal than others.

    (Apoligies to George Orwell – 1984).

  5. Chunky Says:

    Shame as it was an inoffensive and well constructed post. The level of censorship is now getting ridiculous.

  6. jj_sawyer Says:

    oh my god!! and thats from one of their only genuine and recognisable insiders left on the site (johnny h seems to have gone)

    all good points though, but yet again constructive discussion is barred in Oldhams world.

    this could be the straw that breaks the donkeys back…

  7. lobster Says:

    the adult finder ad embarassed me countles of times in the office. My colleague all stopped and take a proper look at my screen because of the damn porn ad. wonder what they are thinking.

  8. The Platinum Club Says:

    Has anyone thought of investigating whether KT is registered with the VAT or Customs & Excise folk?

  9. Ian Randyman Says:

    I feel for Tom. The man is losing the plot. It has been a difficult 2 days for Dunk Oldham. When will he give up. Next plan into action. Your time is up Dunk

  10. bigf00t Says:

    The funny thing is… i could imagine the site being a success if those points were seriously taken into consideration…

    but what with dunk being a rat and all… probably not…

  11. rupertinsider Says:

    Platinum – Yes we have had many posts and comments about it (see my post today “The Anatomy of a Con” for example). One member has posted the contact information to the Inland Revenue and Customs (was it you fat_boy? could you do it again?). Some members have undertaken to inform them. The more the better. An anoymous phone call to a free line or an anonymous written post to them.

    You can get the KT details also from this site. unfortunately it is only a PO Box No but you can give the KT site url, and his variosu tleephone numbers.

  12. silentbutdeadly Says:

    http://dunkknowsbest.com/

    seen this? looks like an attempt to renew his blog.

  13. Tom Says:

    Hi people, thanks for kind comments, someone inside KT (if you’re reading Dunk an MOD!!) posted me this link.

    I’ve been banned. I now reside at “estahblished 1892”. I don’t get so much info anymore but if I do, I’ll post it on there FOR FREE.

  14. jj_sawyer Says:

    for everyone’s attention the best contributer on that site has now been banned for his constructive critisism’s of the site.

    TOM just said this on est1892.co.uk

    ——–

    Just a quick update people. He’s banned me. I will now be residing on here permanently. Even if he begs me, I won’t go back. If I hear any interesting goss I’ll post it here FOR FREE.

    ——–

  15. univofchicago Says:

    duncan oldham has totally lost the plot…

    great post by tommy boy btw…

    i agree with tommy boy that koptalk was a GREAT site. thats whats so sad about all this. cuz of one man’s greed and arrogance, the site is on the verge of a breakdown…

    pity.

  16. Tom Says:

    With the agreement of Insider insider (barf barf – sounds like frankie howard) 🙂
    I’m going to make a more substantial post in a day or so. Stay tuned.

  17. Paul Jackson Says:

    yawn…

  18. Jacksprat Says:

    Doesn’t want much does he.

    Don’t like it..

    Set up your own forum.

    It’s like watching tv or listening to the radio.

    TURN IT OFF OR DON’T TUNE IN!!

  19. Andy Says:

    “It’s like watching tv or listening to the radio.

    TURN IT OFF OR DON’T TUNE IN!!”

    So why don’t you do the same thing with regards to the blog?

  20. univofchicago Says:

    Hi Jacksprat.

    You’ve obviously got a problem with this blog…

    Then may I recommend that you pay a visit to Est1892 (www.est1892.co.uk). They have a nice section called the “Insider” where hundreds of Koptalk members (past and present) discuss a lot of what the blog presents. You’ll also find a lot of ex-Koptalkers who mysteriously disappeared over the past 3 months. I am sure they will be more than willing to entertain your questions…


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